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Microchip implant, Vaccine, Sweden, Passport An Argument For Containment In China

Joining us now adjunct senior fellow council on family foreign relations, heidi krieber rediker, also with us u.s distinguished professor of global affairs, johns hopkins school of advanced international studies, hal brands, his latest essay in the wall street journal is entitled. Containment can work against china too. How lay out that case uh for taking the kind of cold war model of containment against the soviet union to china and using the same pattern? So the basic argument was that containment during the cold war was was based on an assessment that there was an intractable conflict between the united states and the soviet union. And so the competition would last until something changed in moscow and the united states essentially had to prevent the soviet union from overturning the international system along the way and thats. Basically, the challenge that the united states faces vis, a vis, china. Today there are lots of differences between the soviet union and china. The context are different, the players are different, but the basic goal is essentially the same, and so the united states needs to be preparing itself for essentially an indefinite competition with beijing as well. I mean the thing is that they are different arent they heidi, because the soviet union was more aggressive, territorially, but kind of bankrupt financially at home. China were not sure about its global territorial ambitions, but we know that financially, its economy is doing pretty well, so its economy is integrated into the global financial centers of the of the world, its um, its its highly connected to um to the rest of the global Economy so its its a very different story, um its also in a much uh its much stronger.

We used economic statecraft in a sense against the soviet union as part of our overall strategy. We used to use a hybrid. You know hybrid warfare strategy that incorporated a lot of things, including economics. I think its very hard to do that with china theyre just much bigger and more substantial joe, the single biggest test for the us in the next century – yeah it. It is a challenge and and how its a complicated challenge, because while we have to push back against chinas worst tendencies, we also understand were going to be sharing the global stage with them for the next half century and whether were talking about the world economy. Whether were talking about climate change, its go were going to have to strike a balance. This is not the soviet union 1981.. I i remember dr chotner, my political science, professor uh in history, uh, said the soviet union. At that time they were scared of a xerox machine uh, because technology was a threat to them. China is so different in that respect, uh. How? How do we? How do we contain a country uh that is is in africa? Uh is, is, is on every continent, with massive investments that the soviet union couldnt even dream of, so the united states doesnt have to contain chinese influence everywhere and i think thats the wrong way of thinking about it. I think the the critical question is: can the united states prevent china from using coercion or aggression to fundamentally reorder the international system that the united states has led for the past 75 years, and so there are some fronts that are more critical in that respect than Others, the taiwan strait and the western pacific obviously loom very large.

There are technological questions about preventing china from essentially wiring the world and then using the resulting economic and political leverage to remake the international system and so its much more of a selective competition than we might think. Just by looking at a globe and seeing everywhere where chinese influence is manifesting, yeah and heidi, we always talk about doing two things at once: being able to do two separate things at one time we can contain china, but it seems to me engagement in china. Excuse me, engagement in china is also critical on so many different levels, uh again whether youre talking about climate change, whether youre talking about a global economy. Well, obviously, if youre talking about world health crises uh, it went terribly in late 2019 and early 2020, when we didnt have the cooperation of china, we actually, yes, we have to confront them, but we have to figure out a way at the same time, in some Of these other areas to build an even stronger relationship, dont we so we we do – and i think we you know – weve carved out those few areas where we are able to to cooperate. But you know in terms of of uh, looking again at the uh at the at the soviet comparison, you had she and putin having a conversation this week about looking for ways to actually um to actually evade the u.s financial system and u.s markets, um and so Uh, i think, to the extent that we bring checkbooks to uh um to the to the to the gun.

Fight um were were going to have. Um were going to have an increasing issue of both china and russia, cooperating with one another uh in pushing back against us and our us and our allies helene. Well, heidi, i mean speaking of china and russia cooperating. I was having um. I was having coffee yesterday with the swedish um defense chief, and i asked him whats going on in the arctic. What are you you know im expecting to talk about russia and he said, were increasingly worried about china and he started talking about china and russia. Cooperating in the baltic sea staging military exercises, i mean for the last 10 years we have been on what feels like a trajectory thats not going the right way when it comes to china, and when you hear tony blinken saying that china is americas test for this Century i would like to know its 2021. How are we doing on that test because it feels like were failing, so i dont, i dont think were failing. I think i mean. I just think that this is a this is a very you know its a very big challenge, but the way that were addressing it both internally, you know making investments in the us that marty walsh was talking about earlier in infrastructure and making ourselves more more robust And having the relationships with our allies, this is a fundamental realignment that were making right now in our in our national security and national economic security.

So i think um, i think theres a theres theres, very theres, a lot of focus on how we are going to bring all of our tools to the table to it to address a rising china. Well, you know how we we arent always aligned perfectly with our nato allies when it comes to china. Obviously, germany is not shoulder to shoulder with us at all times when we we want to strike out economically aggressively against china. At the same time, it sounds very ominous when china and russia talk about trying to become independent economically by putting their 19 trillion dollar economy and their 2 trillion dollar economy together. Until you start looking at the united states economy and the european unions economy and were over 40 trillion dollars, it seems to me with that combined power. We have and will always have a hell of a lot of leverage over both of those countries. So i think the biggest story of the past two years has been the dramatic change in global attitudes toward china. If you look at global opinion, polling chinas, global favorability ratings have basically fallen off a cliff since covid began and youre, seeing more and more instances, whether its the quad or august or nato and the g7 expressing their concern about chinas behavior. That countries around the world are really becoming more alarmed at chinas, aggressive actions, and so this goes to your point, which is that if the united states can find a way of hanging together with its predominantly democratic allies and partners, not just in asia but in europe And elsewhere, then, that balance of power is going to be extremely difficult for china to overcome, and so that really is the center of gravity in this conversation and hal im so glad you bro, i did im sorry, i just want to say hal im so im.

So glad you brought that up, because we look at what she has done over the past several years and obviously were concerned uh and just as so many other people are concerned, we talk about the state becoming a more totalitarian state, moving towards maoism. At the same time, it seems to me every one of those moves have been self defeating. We i mean the fact that they they have, they have blown apart hong kong uh, the the the problems theyve had there, the ongoing problems with the wagers, the problem in the south, china, sea, uh, aggravating uh, australia, so much that they want to do a massive Nuclear deal with us, it seems to me that every one of these moves are short sighted and actually cut against whats in chinas long term interest do. Do we not have an example again, even though these moves are horrifying? Is this not an example of? Are our rivals actually doing great harm to themselves? I think theyre great examples of basically self defeating autocratic, behavior and so xi. Jinpings near term legacy is a much more assertive china. I think his long term legacy is going to be a weaker and more isolated. China hes really sort of taken an axe to a lot of the sources of chinas success, diplomatic and, in some ways, economic as well. Over the past 30 years, jonathan heidi, i dont, have the humble brag of having had a coffee with a swedish defense chief yesterday um, but i did want to just ask to pick up on house point there about 2022 being an important year for china.

Obviously, the eyes of the world will be on it in just a few weeks for the olympics uh. We know that a lot of countries in the united states are not sending a diplomatic mission, but talk to us about how president xis zero tolerance, covid policy uh may actually end up being a hindrance for its economy, particularly with this new, far more transmissible omicron wave. Surely arriving soon, so i think i think this is one of the underreported stories right now, because you do have, as you were talking about earlier, the j j versus uh, the mrna shots. Uh, you have a population of around 1.4 billion people who have the equivalent of of j and j with the transmissible uh, highly transmissible variant and the propensity to just shut down the economy. You know you think about supply chains. They shut down a port last august with one case of covid and uh for two weeks that you know put a spanner in the works for the for the the global supply chain, and so, if you think about the olympics coming up, if you think about the Party congress in the spring of 2022 – this is a really big year for president xi to actually get things right and failing on containing kovid with a zero tolerance policy is going to be a bad look. Hey thanks! So much for watching our youtube channel.

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